These are unedited transcripts and may contain errors.

ENUM Working Group on Thursday 27th of September, 2012 at 4 p.m.:

NIALL O'REILLY: Good afternoon, everybody. I am Niall O'Reilly and with Carsten we are the co?chairs of this ENUM Working Group, so if you didn't intend to be in ENUM, you should be in the other room. And just to finish the introductions, Carsten would you like to stand up and bow to the audience. Before we get started on the agenda I would like to invite Filiz Yilmaz to make an announcement.

FILIZ YILMAZ: Hello, ENUM Working Group. We have now ten candidates whose bios are updated on the website for the Programme Committee elections, that will take place tomorrow around eleven. So the important thing to remember is that this time the elections are are going to be electronic voting, so you will need to have an access to this system, which you see at the top of there, like sign in with RIPE NCC access, so if you are willing to participate in the elections, please make sure that you have an account and sign in tomorrow. Thank you.

NIALL O'REILLY: Thanks Filiz. And you have reminded me, with your perfect exemplary performance the microphone etiquette to remind people when you approach the microphone, declare your name and if you like you can say who you work for or where you are coming from, but this is being recorded and archived so people will need to know who is speaking.

We have, as usual, kind volunteers from the RIPE NCC, monitoring the Jabber channel and taking the notes of the meeting that will be published as the minutes in due course, and we have the excellent stenography service and sound and media desk people as well, so there is plenty of people supporting us.

Here, you see the agenda. It's been on the meeting website for a while now, and if anybody wants to add additional items to the agenda, now is the time to speak.

Then, I think we declare the actual agenda rather than the draft agenda, and move on to the ?? to confirming the minutes of the previous meeting. Carsten has done a lot of housekeeping homework for this meeting because I have been busy with some other stuff and I want to thank him for that and one of the things was to put out a last call several weeks ago for confirming the minutes of the last meeting and to send a reminder in the last couple of days. There has been no further comments on the mailing list, so this is last chance for the people in the room to object to the minutes of the ENUM Working Group meeting at RIPE 64 in Ljubljana, and there is nobody against that, so I declare these minutes final.

And then we review the action list. There is open action item on Denesh and Peter Szegedi to do some brainstorming with people who are operating public ENUM production systems and neither of them has been able to be here, so we have to leave that action item open. We don't have a report from them and Carsten and I will badger them before the Dublin meeting to get some response.

And that brings us to the first of the presentations, and an interesting point this time is that the two main presentations we are going to have today are both from first time participants in a RIPE meeting and the first of them Rick van Rein has already given a presentation in the plenary. It's a pretty good first attendance at the RIPE meeting, congratulations, you are very welcome and it's your turn to speak.

RICK VAN REIN: Thank you for being here. I am working on things for. ..over IPv6, hence my interest in ENUM, my country is the Netherlands and half year back I was asked to take over the registration services for ENUM. And then I started to take a really close look at it, and I realised, which I have been realising longer of course, that a major problem for getting people to accept ENUMs appears to be that somebody should offer services in ENUM and somebody should look them up and those people come together. If 50% offer service only 25 of the services times are going to be met. Now that's pretty nasty. Until you reach a particular critical mass.

Now, I have been asked to basically perform registrar functions, but I think that's a bit minimal, so I thought I would develop a bit more and one of my activities has been what can we do with ENUM before we reach critical mass, that's by just push be publishing ENUM or looking it up. As I found pretty much and according to the Chairs there are some new ideas or fresh ideas so they wanted me to present it over here. It's therefore, that I am here.

So first of all, one side, what is it offering something in ENUM? How can I make use of it? Of course, everybody knows what the QR code is. This particular one says http column.NL/31 ?? now, I am caught for being bluffing because I don't remember what number, but it's E. 164 number.

You see it's on a van or a letter paper, on a visiting card, you scan it, you get a list of contact details, each line of which represents an pointer and basically it's a web interface so anyone can scan these and you get them and click on them and you can make contact with that particular person.

It couldn't be any simpler. You don't need to explain this. That's the major thing. My first customer in this was bicycle repairs man who was a friend of mine, intrigued by this idea, wanted a QR code on his van and it simply works for him.

Stuff you can put in here, for example, very nice are Google maps locations, for example, because just about any phone will pop up a map and you can draw a route to this bicycle repairs man and that sort of thing. Of course, you can put all sorts of social media links and very recognisable, so people are really happy with that, you can put photographs in it, what can't you put in ENUM basically?

And because it's very static, you don't have to worry too much about getting it in the shape of this particular QR code. I mean, you change your ENUM records, you don't change your QR code. I got it off ?? by the way, this wasn't a real one.

Now, that's one idea. Just QR codes on themselves you don't have to sell them, they just do what you do. You could out a alternative means but having a standard in place that also works together with other potential things, I think is a good idea and so ENUM is probably useful for that.

ENUM, I realised, if when you register your number you don't get DNS entry but you get a DNS zone, you don't just get the same label with every label underneath, if you have a number like OpenFortress, you have all the sub numbers as well. This is very nice because it means that you can give every department, every action activity of your company or your personal life, your husband, your daughter, the other par rot, you can give them all their own account and why not your ?? we all have a SIP front at the front door and it's a hotline and it calls my number. So yesterday I was bothered over here because somebody was at the door, it can be a nuisance, you want to control it.

But why not assign a number to that so you can really confuse the packet delivery guy when he is trying to pick up a phone and you happen to be calling him. It's all possible.

This would be an output by the way of one of those QR codes. I perhaps should have put it before but this would be ?? you could ?? let me do it bit more professional way.  ?? I don't like these slides. You could just click this particular one, which is what I wanted to do and then you get this Google maps thing inside your phone and it will do exactly what you expect, of course. This is one of those pages that's just hosted by these ENUM hosting S other things had a it hosts are SIP service for the phone numbers, action PP so you can chat, this wrapping, it doesn't just do E. 164 phone numbers, it will also take free num numbers which is the scheme with starring fixed, the part behind is your personal number which is like your domain name basically but you can enter it on DDMF key pad, anything but rotary phones can use this. You can pick one of the things I will do is make sure people can register these numbers for themselves and use them to dial them on each other and this is also ENUM technology, it's just another tree.

This is something that quite a few people are using.

I have built this portal plus 31 which is Netherlands and I am quite willing if countries are looking for registrar I am quite willing to talk to them to extend to other countries because I think not just registering records but putting services underneath means you are giving a total package to end user, they have something they can use rather than getting a number of dots that they still have to connect even though they are taught not to think because they use Windows.

The other way around, something is in ENUM, can I look it up? Is there any use in looking stuff up? And one application of course is cheap calling. I know people always say it's not about cheap calling, that might be a part of it but it's not about it. True. But it's definitely there. And if I look at people who have family abroad, they are very much interested in making phone calls over the Internet. Well, they usually end up doing is take a local carrier and dial over the expensive telephone network to the remote country and get terminated there. Whereas I would get an account with the remote ?? in the remote destination country get a SIP account and make a cheap local call. This sort of stuff can easily be achieved with ENUM of course. If I want to be reached by family abroad, I just take an ENUM entry and make sure they can look me up.

How do you look it up? If you look at the difficulty of setting up ENUM, what is usually explained is how to set up your PBX. It is a bit difficult, even if you are on an analog phone you could dial this number ?? by the way, the things I am presenting here are fairly new, I start this had half year ago my first initiative was to get registration going. The applications are are usually fall, beta or in this case wishful, I still wish to get this going, I will in a few weeks but at this point it's not working yet but the idea is would you dial this number, if you dial from the Netherlands you would get a dial tone which I call the Internet dial tone, and you would punch in a number that is basically any validated network like ENUM, NRENum, FREEnum, and perhaps even peering small telcos in local and remote countries.

The idea just being you make your local call, you make a local call and then you connect over the Internet for the long distance. And I think this is a great service to have in a number of countries so that you can call back and forth. All you need as, for example, Turkish people in the Netherlands could have an ENUM registration, in Turkey they could call a Turkish dialing number to the Internet dial tone where they would enter the number of the family over here and they would be connected over the Internet.

The other way around is a bit more difficult because Turkey is, as I understand it, a single telco country that is automatically, therefore, isn't very much into ENUM.

I started saying this a bit too early. Usually when people tell you how to configure ENUM and make use of it or outgoing calls, and usually the explanation is go to your open SIPs or astericks box, and punch in the following things and it should work. Now, a lot of support has been built in there, it's really good to see. However, not everybody has an asterisk box and it limits what you can do with ENUM. So what I have done is I have realised that anything SIP phone that I have seen and come across and I have seen a lot, in software as well as hardware has the capability of setting up outbound SIP proxy which is the first hop going out. Even if you say that you register with telco X, it will still take that hop first before it passes on telco X based on DNS look?ups. This first hop can do your ENUM and NRENum and the same as the previous slides, the look?ups and make the connection. And that will be ?? connection directly over the Internet, that has a few implications, you need to switch on ICE or whatever the phone supports so at least you are using public IP addresses, if you don't you are going to tell people on the other side contact me on 19216812 and that might not work for them. So you do need to make sure that your S TP office are external addresses but other than that this actually works.

It's on a non?standard UDP port and I was telling you and I am sure our telecommunications market watchdog, watch angel would call me a telco and will charge me for it and for now it's not public but it's 50/50 and you shouldn't try to dump, please. And send me an e?mail if someone else wants to know.

That's the two sides were doing one end of ENUM already is useful as far as I am concerned. Something that came along this week is there is a deaf society that uses SIP a lot and they have a special media form called realtime text where they have better interaction with chat, chat is based on per line exchanges, whereas almost as soon as you punch in a key, it will arrive at the other end, meaning that deaf people also have the capability of like what Carsten just did, nodding, yes I know, that sort of interaction is very much appreciated by deaf people and that's why they have the special code he can. There has been a very project called reach 112 to get these people to use that mechanism to dial into 112, the European alarm number, the 911 of Europe, and quite honestly, registering such an enflee ENUM perhaps pointing to a deaf support service would be a great service to these people and I can see many companies who should spend a lot on that, some money on that, it's not expensive, you need a contract with one of those deaf support people.

That's another application you could use.

A bit about countries. I have seen only one, I have seen what we have done in the Netherlands and we have done very professionally I think I should say. We have really thought out the procedures, when is validation correct, what is the opinion of all the parties involved. Doing that means a big investment, and I think it's stopping many countries from actually making the dive into ENUM which is part of the critical mass problem. We Dutch, we are like that, we are a bit formal, I suppose. And what we have had here is a lot of work to get it going actually and eventually ENUM is fairly expensive in the Netherlands; I am not saying per registration but there has been a big investment in it. And I would want to throw to the audience here another option, which is very lightweight, which is saying if I am a country, I am considering ENUM and I am not doing it just because it's too expensive, please consider just finding a technical company who can actually run your registry, stay in charge of all the policies yourself as country and let the technical company do hosting of your reg. It isn't that difficult per se; it's basically DNS and a bit of redundancy. If you set it up small it can at least grow without being very painful. If it happens not to catch on, I think all the countries should really consider ENUM. That's why I say that if money is a problem please consider lightweight alternative. That's a personal opinion.

To summarise what I have said: I think ENUM of course ideally you have got a service offering a service request coming together. But it's already useful now to broadcast information and, at the same time, independently I think it's also useful just to find the information. We need some extra source of information and that's the kind of thing we like in the Internet. Not everybody knows thousand look up IP address in Whois database, for those who do it's useful.

Also, I think if you take the lightweight approach in your adaption needn't be difficult or expensive to countries and I would urge all countries to please consider at least adopting ENUM and if you are in doubts, talk to the people here, please.

That's what I had to say. I hope it's useful.

NIALL O'REILLY: Thanks, Rick. Are you prepared to take a few questions?

RICK VAN REIN: Well, I have to, I suppose.

NIALL O'REILLY: Would anybody like to ask any questions? I will dive in.

From my experience in the ENUM trial in Ireland and from some knowledge I have of ENUM production phase in Ireland and other countries, one of the big difficulties with making it lightweight is that telephone numbers aren't identifiers quite like the other ones. If you want an Internet domain or if you want a gmail mailbox or a Skype identifier, you effectively invent your own if, it's free you get it. It's a bit more formal with telephone numbers because it has to be granted to you by a telco and then usually in the production ENUM framework, it has to be validated every so often so it's not something that you have invented for yourself or you can hold on to forever; you have to keep rejustifying it, and I ?? that seems to me to have been a key obstacle to adoption, and I am surprised that you didn't mention it a bit more. Would you like to comment?

RICK VAN REIN: Of course. I don't know the number plans of the entire world, I know the Dutch one quite well. There are numbers ?? there are actually Telcos which allow you to register a number from among their series, so what do you is you find the prefix ofs that are assigned to Telcos, you register a number there and take it to the provider you want by portability and you have got the exact number that you want, but you can just go to the one where you want to be and saith last few digits will suffice. What I plan to do with FREEnum is start 880 numbers is exactly this: Just bunching what you would like to have, let us even so that people can just punch it on key?pad and you get that number with star 880 post?fixed.

There are several possibilities for companies in the future also for individuals in the Netherlands at least, to register numbering of their liking. Telecoms marketing is arranging. So it's definitely freeing up in that respect in the Netherlands. If I may add one more thing: The need to regularly validate the number is of course related to the fact that the telecoms operators are not reporting back when a number is disconnected. If I were to roll out a lightweight version of ENUM in any country, I would make it obligatory and that would mean fighting the telecoms operators but that's why you are a law maker. It's a public fact if a number gets disconnected.

NIALL O'REILLY: Just a final comment on that. I think that the key thing there, if you want to compel operators to do anything, you need the regulator to get in behind you and put rules in place that are the rules you'd like to see rather than the rules the regulator might have chosen, and quite a battle.

RICK VAN REIN: By the telecoms operator, yeah.

CARSTEN SCHIEFNER: It's basically a follow?up question to what you guys have discussed, even more so possibly ?? I don't know how it works in the Netherlands, what you have just explained, that number I would be able to get out of the allocation of one telco operator. Would I need ?? would I nonetheless need to have a contract in place for phone services nonetheless or would it be actually more close to register a domain name that might have a need for delegation but otherwise I don't need to use it at all or what is the system there?

RICK VAN REIN: It depends on what kind of number, as a consumer you would go to telco and if you are lucky you can choose from the first six or so digits that were assigned to them, you were choose the remaining digits. Would you need a contract but you have the right for portability, so if you want to move after the contract period of a year, say, you can still move but you just find the flexible kind which offers this and at the same time is probably a low cost provider, at least in the Netherlands that's the case. For companies that are special ranges like 088 and after that you can basically register anything you like which is available. For individuals that's coming up with 084, 087 and 085.

CARSTEN SCHIEFNER: There is no such, say, number space or possibility in general to hold on to a certain phone number without a contract for any kind of telco service

RICK VAN REIN: You mean individual numbers that are ENUM only?


RICK VAN REIN: You are giving away one of my plans. Not yet. Any operator can do this, right? That's a matter of time.

AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Robert, I am one of the happy operators of ENUM running in Austria and we have dedicated number range which actually is dedicated to ENUM and works exactly the way you describe. Which has the duty that you can choose your number. We are now running this for about eight years, something like this, seven years, and have about 3,000 numbers, in this number range. It works nice for a closed community. You have to be aware that you are addressing special applications. Choose your number, you know, it's ENUM, it works but you are missing the big business case, nasty work but at the end somebody has to pay for it, somebody has to pay our travel, our lunch, and whatever, and you are completely losing the opportunity to offer ENUM behind a number, a transparent way, if I have to use a different identifier, then why should I use a telephone number, I can use any kind of Internet identifier, and if I am using a Skype identifier or you name it so going to special number range only works quite nicely in a special community. For a business ?? for a company, it's not really a nice and attractive feature to have a new number to be reachable by ENUM. And the problem also is that it's a little bit like the DNSSEC and IPv6 discussion, somebody has to pay for the infrastructure and unfortunately, the guy who is made the effort to enter his ENUM registration and pay for it is not the one who takes the benefits, I take the cost for giving you the chance to make free phone calls to me, as you pointed correctly out it only works if there is a kind of bundle, I am not offering ENUM but product of a certain feature and this requires product it, doesn't get termination fees. So again, how many people are willing to offer 24/7, 100% reliable or 99.9% reliable feature, business great, ready for usage, interoperable at no cost and no income and I am ?? thank you for the nice presentation, but I still fail to see the new idea and beside enthusiasm, which is nice to see because I shared it some years ago, but I still failing to see the new idea and the way people could be motivated to offer this, and especially in small countries you have always the problem that they have a handful of incumbents and big players who don't benefit from ENUM and some small players who might be use of ENUM but the smalls don't get the critical mass and the big ones are not interested because of money and that's I think the reality we face today.

RICK VAN REIN: One remark at the very least to this, you have toll?free numbers in Austria I presume.

AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Toll free is relative, means that the the party that called pays for it.

RICK VAN REIN: Exactly, this is a service you provide to be other people to be able to reach you for free.

AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Yes if the scheme allows people, toll free numbers are in some countries, including myself, are not for ENUM and it doesn't solve the problem. All the ?? all have to provide ENUM lookup because otherwise it doesn't scale either.

RICK VAN REIN: I am not just suggesting having ENUM behind the toll free number which can save these toll free recipients a lot of money and therefore creates a business scheme. I am also saying that there might be more people interested and especially businesses might be interested in being able ?? being reachable for free on something people already know, phone number.

AUDIENCE SPEAKER: But these so called toll free numbers are a are a big business fore telcos and somebody has to offer this. You can set up some SIP, I can't commune ?? I can communicate by SIP address as well, I don't have to rely on the phone number, and the customer using the I don't know whether that supports it, so that's the problem.

RICK VAN REIN: True, if I give people phone number people know how to call, if I give SIP number they get confused.

CARSTEN SCHIEFNER: I have a certain feeling you guys are talking to each other on different levels. What Rick intends to mention with 0800 numbers companies in particular are offering free services to a third parties by paying for those services and so why isn't it possible to do the same trick that, well, some party pays for services actually only beneficial at first sight of course, only beneficial to other parties.

AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Because those companies offering this free services don't offer them because they are good to humanity or believe in the better world because they are offering a service behind it or a support, and I think that doesn't compare to the reality. There might be some applications for this. But again, where is the critical mass? Unfortunately, I would love to see, really.

NIALL O'REILLY: OK. I think we have some something from Jabber.

ATHINA: I have a comment I think from Jabber from Rikard from LT?ENUM registry. Some countries allow for personal/organisal assignments of numbering space, for example, Lithuania requires you to make this routable in PSTN and publication in ENUM may be sufficient to respond to this requirement, it may be something people would like to know or suggest to their policy makers. Thank you.

RICK VAN REIN: Interesting. Thanks.


AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Anto from Estonia, and yes, indeed, it has nothing to do with films but in Estonia the State has organised the possibility for every citizen to reroute at least two addresses, one is e?mail addresses so far, one of them is first name dot last name at Estonia, and another is the Personal Identification Number. So I got a State portal with my PKI enabled ID car and I can reroute these two things. And there is yet another possibility, I will not describe it in deep, but it considers redirecting making 330 or 3 ?? redirecting to some personal website, so there are several schemes, as I said in Lithuania, in Estonia, and technically it's no difference who direct and does this idea, thank you.

RICK VAN REIN: It does help if government is pushing it a bit, yes, of course, thanks. I am a bit cautioned by the way by having a numeric identifier that's routed to individual citizens because you can enumerate your citizens and that might be very good from mars e?mail. But other than that, great addition, thanks.

NIALL O'REILLY: There are no more questions, we will thank Rick and congratulations. And we will move on to the next item of the agenda, which is a remote presentation from Mihaly Meszaros in Budapest. Oh, it's just that's the Skype message. I can't decipher the sentence under his name.


NIALL O'REILLY: We are all set for you. Welcome to RIPE 64 ?? 65, sorry. I am six months out. And well come to your first RIPE meeting, I think.

MIHALY MESZAROS: Thank you. So my name is ?? I have been working for an IF to the Hungarian national research and education network and I would like to give you a short update about the and service updates.

I am not a good presenter and maybe I am the worst speaker in my organisation, so sorry about it. And please accept my apologies, I would like to try to do my best so I would like to speak about first the new delegations.

There are recently delegated to, the Polish NRUM and the plus 48 that we delegated the plus one to the north American numbering plan to Internet for trial, currently it is DNSSEC secured and we delegated plus 61 to Australia AARNET and also delegated 54 Argentina and 55 Brazil and Lithuania and we are progressing few countries and few country codes so we are an ongoing discussion and delegation process so in Peru and Sri Lanka, Denmark, Iceland, and Sweden, signalled that they are also willing to delegate five country codes and they would like to operate original DNS and Brazil also mentioned that they want to operate original DNS server for the Latin American countries.

So operate regional DNS so sub delegate some country codes to such regional DNS servers, we have been discussed in our participants and we see what the active participants thinks about such sub delegation. So, this is about the newcomers and the delegations, and we have currently 18 country code delegated to announce. And I would like to speak about our plans and operational plans and some issues.

Currently, the operation is voluntary based. The operation is based on the NRENs, namely car net and N I IF and switch, and we would like to operate more professionally and create a service operational technical team and that go on the new developments and we would like to set up such a team. And we would like also add more DNS name server to the service and to make it more stable and spread around the world this DNS space servers. Currently Internet to signal they would like to operate such a slave server but like to spread around the world as many continents as we can. And currently, DNS servers is in Europe so in crow ate I can't and Switzerland and Hungary, and we would like also extend our parole see some revalidation, so to make our ENUM database up?to?date, we would like to revalidate all country codes again and we would like to extend our policy with such points. And currently we are planning the joint GEANT working Group and it is planning if it's accepted to create a world gatekeeper what are using also ENUM query and querying and somehow replacing or trying to replace the gatekeeper hierarchy with used currently in GEANT.

This is the chart about how we currently work, so new NRENum is coming it is submitting a request to the delegation list, we have two, delegation and discussion list, and I have network operation centre is checking that the request is fulfilling the policy document and after if NRENum is set up, the DNS server is correctly done we are delegating the country code. If there is some problem then we ask the active members, so in the discussion list we could make a decision or if the active members can then make the final word. And ?? is helping our community, namely Peter Szegedi is leading this community and organising meetings, so he helps a lot ?? lots of this to this community.

Policies and best current practices:

We would like to update our current policy with some clarification and extend it with more detailed descriptions and make it more clear because there are some points where we feel that it is not clear enough and we will refresh this policy document and we are ?? we would like to create a recommendation about national service policy and I would ?? we would like to collect best practices and there is a very important point what we would like to add to the policy that national policy could allow to add valid e164 to the tree, what is not connected to NRENum, e164 could be delegated to the three if the national policy allows it.

And we would like also collecting best current practices, so ENUM lookup is only not a peering protocol so we need some signalling protocols and we would like to gather all best practices about SIP, XMPP, whatever communication protocol used in this community to peer each other using the ENUM 3. And also we would like to collect best current practices about the country level, country level operation, how and country operator is sub delegating what tools they are using, what are the issues and what are the solutions and so on.

One very important question is the numbers, and the NREN community has limited e164 number ranges and we want to somehow solve this issue, creating or giving the possibility to get enough numbers to our community, so somehow create registrar numbers, what are not currently valid e164 numbers. There are many ways in the community and we discussed many times but we are ?? we have ongoing discussion about this issue, and we can create a sub tree inside ENUM tree and put all the number to this tree or the most popular option is creating new country code and the recommendations for are in line with ITU?T, the national numbering plans, and the local operators' dialing plan. Delegate virtual numbers to an ENUM tree before and we should somehow summarise this and we should collect such cases and create a clear case and after it we can approach ITU?T.

There are three potential virtual country code, what we have thinking about so far, the plus ten, plus 83 and the Voxbone have donated us and they can delegate and sub delegate ranges that are nonprofit used. And we will discuss about this in our community. There is no conclusion currently, but we will try to solve this issue because the ?? has not enough numbers currently and it's not easy to get such identifier and enough identifier to address every one.

About the technical developments, we introduced DNSSEC at tier 1 level and the web page and ?? also secured by DNSSEC. We are using DNSSEC and NSEC and we are using OpenDNSSEC currently and the DNSSEC is secured, secured by DNSSEC, currently the hung air Jan numbers and the Internet 2 numbers and we are waiting to ?? for any other country to give their case and create DNSSEC in his country.

Currently, we are correcting query logs from all DNS servers and we will stop this because it was not so relevant as we saw, and we see only that there are some usage but there are caching DNS servers and so on, so we are ?? we will move to ?? from the query log analyses to crawler ENUM in A/PTR records, and after we had crawler to our service, there is lots of query, generated by the crawler but it is filtered out from statistics, and here are the summary of the usage from the query logs. What is collected from the two DNS and from primary server, and here is the crawler, what we had from ?? from NRENum.80 and we are very thankful to him, and we only changed and customised only a few things and we are running the same, what is running at ENUM .80. We have some issues but it works really good, and we would like to improve it in some points, so we would like to improve the crawler because we have some problems with the empty terminals that DNS server is giving back in its domain and after the crawler is stopping digging deeper in the tree, if it is getting its domain and some ?? old DNS servers are getting back its domain for empty non?terminals and we have also a problem with NRENuming, using number discovery with they are asking on the fly. ENUM from the asterisk network and the name server also giving back its domain for empty non?terminals.

And this is why the car net is not on the crawler page because it cannot be crawled in this way. We would like to extend with ENUM lookup web interface and like also update the DNS lookup library, what is outdated currently and we would like IPv6 DNS servers, what is not allowed currently, and improving somehow the query speed and somehow to link the database to make little bit faster but it works and everyone can reach the page.

About the financial issues:

Currently the ENUM tree is operated by TERENA, not operated ?? the domain name. We moved both domain from CABIN and /PW*ERPB to TERENA and TERENA is paying for this to domain name and the two only the first domain, is used as root of ENUM tree, but both name, at top level domain is pointing to the terminal WIKI page and the web browser are subjected to this WIKI page, where are the information applying form and the application form and and policy on what we have currently on the statistics and so on.

And the currently the operation is voluntary based and all things what we are doing are only warranted by the ?? we are operating DNS server, DNSSEC and latest summary and we would like operate it sustainable fashion so like to run the service cost and we ask the countries if they can contribute for bit of small money in the operation and there are positive responses so we can maybe ask to contribute with a small amount of money and also maybe if the GEANT tree is accepting our idea then we can make a joint research and have some money from the GEANT country to finance somehow the operation.

And in summary, I would like to say that operation and service is stable and we have new services introduced like DNSSEC. We are planning to set up an operational technical team and more slaves to extend scalability and stability. And community is growing so new countries are appearing and delegated also and more countries in the queue, so hopefully they will delegate soon.

And we would like create joint effort to use in the word "gatekeeper," that's operated by the GEANT and we would like to update policy refresh and create best ?? collect best current practices and create policy recommendation for national services, and also we would like in this year solve somehow or try to solve the virtual number issue and give more and more numbers if we can to the community and also what I mentioned, we would like to cover, somehow, the service cost and make it a long?term operation.

So, hopefully we will have a small budget to improve that and extend the service and we work the crawler and so on.

And this is what I want to tell you. If you have any question, please go ahead. Thank you.

NIALL O'REILLY: Are there questions from the audience?

AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Robert Schischka. I have one question. Are your end points open for everybody to connect? So you mentioned different telephone numbers outside the NRENum world could be pointing to your tree so does your SIP proxis connect to everybody and do you see denial of service or brute force attacks there?

MIHALY MESZAROS: We cannot see currently brute force attacks. And to answer your question, we can allow if the ?? then this allowed to delegate validated e164 number to our tree.

RICK VAN REIN: Rick Van Rein from OpenFortress. I am ENUM registrar and service provider in the Netherlands. Clear difference ?? there are several differences between what you sketch for the academic community as opposed to the public user of ENUM system. One of the most striking differences that you are growing and growing and growing and that's a very good thing to see. Could you give your ideas about what would cause these differences?

MIHALY MESZAROS: I think because our NREN community is working very tighter together and maybe this makes this thing to work because many NRENs are very tightly connected and we have joint workshops and we are working, tightly that maybe the NRENs are working in a different way like the commercial were because there is no need for ?? for many or some other motivation, only that the people are interested in how it works and that's what enough to implement such service in the N rans.

RICK VAN REIN: A suggestion towards virtual number requirements: I held previous presentation, I don't think you have seen it, one of the things I offered my customers is just adding digits so they get set numbers or completely registered numbers, that's a very easy way because it's zone anyway rather than just label that you can fill.


CARSTEN SCHIEFNER: I have a couple of questions, actually. First one is, if you could do us a favour and go back when it comes to the amount of queries that the primary name server has seen over the last couple of months. Yes that one. I just wonder, I mean, this is not really a steady growth; this is more or less a jump. What happened in February this year that you went from 150,000, give or take in January, and much, much more ?? much, much less in the month before, to what is it, almost ?? to more than 300,000 queries per month?

MIHALY MESZAROS: The query load collecting script if I am not wrong, it was the problem that they are not collecting every query used beforehand and after it they collected, they look at their in count after it, we get the bigger number.

CARSTEN SCHIEFNER: I see. Second question is that I know that the academic community is quite playful at times so I just wonder whether there is a initiative, there is an idea going around to deploy other services than telephony services or also video?conferencing services that would still call them classic services to some extent, I just wonder whether you guys have other unknown services in the queue to put, to put up as an NRENum service

MIHALY MESZAROS: Currently as I said the scheme ?? the edicom Working Group is about ?? we are very open to any form what the ENUM tree lookup could be used, so ENUM lookup is only a lookup, so if there is other similar protocols supporting video conference or sharing secondary video streams and so on for record control whatever, so we are not limited only with voice and IP telephone, so we are ?? this service is not only about free calls; it's more about new services and such.

Carsten: That's exactly what I mean, whether there is some, yeah, really new services are coming up like follow me services or present services that are triggered by, say, external events such as calendar function in your laptop etc.. that's what I have had in mind like new services. And last question is, in terms of validation and/or authentication, I know that in the academic community, at least in Europe here, there is a service available called EdRoam, that's when a student from one country and one city just for a semester or half a year goes to another city to continue his or her studies, that she can use the wi?fi being present at the university more or less instantaneously, I just wonder whether there is an initiative going on to have these two functions, the number validation as well as, say, just maybe offering even a number to the students, that's number can be carried on to wherever ?? wherever they actually do their studies. I just to see whether the authentication mechanism will be used in NRENum as well sometime soon?

MIHALY MESZAROS: Yes, so I also at roaming ID in our community in work, and we are thinking about the use of ID, what is about ?? authentication, this is somehow secondary assertion and ?? should be based system for authentication and e164 validation but currently we are not that phase but we are using infrastructure for validation. But we are thinking about it.


NIALL O'REILLY: We seem to have no further questions at this stage. I would like to thank you very much, that was very interesting and it's a huge achievement to have such volume and it looks like the widest deployment I know of semi?open ENUM based service deployment, it's terrific, thank you very much.


And now I'd like to invite Anand Buddhdev from the RIPE NCC who is standing in for his colleague, whose name is on the slides, Romeo, to give an update of the tier 0 operations.

ANAND BUDDHDEV: Thanks Niall. Good afternoon everyone. My name is Anand Buddhdev from the RIPE NCC. Unfortunately, Romeo couldn't be here to do this presentation so I am going to do that on his behalf.

So this is just a very short update on things that have happened within the top level ENUM zone last the last RIPE meeting. Earlier this year, in June, there were two new delegations in the ENUM zone, and that was 888, which is being operated or at least has been delegated to Voxbone, and 994 for Azerbaijan.

We are also look at signed zones within ENUM, there have been no changes since the last RIPE meeting. There are six of them and they are all still signed, as far as I know, so there is no changes there, DNSSEC?wise.

One of the statistics that we have been presenting is queries for undelegated ENUM codes. So I have a graph here showing a result of this. On the left?hand side, you can see a pie chart. There is a large blue section and those are all queries for 90, which is the country code for Turkey, and that pretty much dominates all the NX domain response that's we are sending out. So I have expanded the pie chart, showing the other countries for which we receive queries, and send out NX domain responses. There isn't really a big change from previous meetings; the USA 1, Russia, 7, these tend to dominate the DNS domain responses and they are still there, Belgium, Egypt, South Africa, Spain, Switzerland, all featured in the past and are still on the list so no major changes there.

Moving along. We also do measurements on the quality of delegations in the ENUM zone. In the past, we used to present a simpler pie chart showing green, orange and red for delegations which were completely OK, delegations which had a few problems and delegations which were completely broken. We have actually switched to a new delegation checking software at the RIPE NCC, this is DNS check used by or developed by the Swedish registry and that's what I have used to measure the quality of delegations in the ENUM zone this time so they have slightly more detail. The chart shows that there are 31 delegations which are all fine. Five of them have minor issues and by this I mean that DNS resolution for these zones works just fine and the minor issues might be something like one server out of several not responding to TCP on a v6 address or something like that. So, minor enough, but delegation continues.

Four of them are completely lame, which means that none of the servers are responding. Ten are partially lame, which means that some of it servers are responding and others are not responding at all.

And then I found two where there were DNSSEC?related problems; one was returning expired signatures for the DNS key RRZ, and the other one is not returning signatures at all, even though a DS record exists in the ENUM zone. So that's the breakdown of the quality of delegation for the ENUM zone.

And that ends my short presentation.

AUDIENCE SPEAKER: If I get correct, your no DNSSEC means those two pretend to be signed but has some problems, does not imply that 31 healthy all signed, correct.


AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Would recommend to change the wording, for me it looks like 31 are healthy and signed.

ANAND BUDDHDEV: I agree with you and will present that better next time.

RICK VAN REIN: OpenFortress. When you look at zone being DNSSEC signed, the EPP protocol for ENUM if I recall it well, doesn't allow for secure delegations to be submitted, so that might be something you additionally want to check. I know at least one country where the secure delegations are not possible, where it is zone in its entirety is signed and that I think is very relevant if measured because not delegating securely means it's totally useless to have a signed zone it just looks good on these slides, which it shouldn't.

ANAND BUDDHDEV: When I talk about DNSSEC signed and delegated zones here, I mean in the ENUM top level e164 top ARPA zone. I am not looking at any subsecure delegations; I am only looking for DS records submitted by the ENUM operator to the RIPE NCC for inclusion in

RICK VAN REIN: It might be be good to include customer end user warning of some kind that doesn't mean anything until the actual delegations within the country zones are also signed. If you have insecure delegations you don't have the end user security for the ENUM lookups you are doing and that's what we are after. Without that, it's absolutely useless to have a signed zone. To me that's non?information, if I may be so bold.

NIALL O'REILLY: Rick, if I can interject there. The point here is that the information you'd like to see and which I agree with you is very useful, is out of scope for the tier 0 operator. And this is a tier 0 update and Anand can only tell you about the information that the RIPE NCC's team is responsible for.

ANAND BUDDHDEV: That's right.

RICK VAN REIN: I agree with that. Yes.

CARSTEN SCHIEFNER: Two questions. First one is about this slide we are having appear right now which is the pie chart when it comes to the delegation quality. Are new touch with the tier 1 operators, for example, that have for partially DNSSEC problems or partially lame or even fally lame or is that just let it silt and to see if there are any rectifications coming down to you?

ANAND BUDDHDEV: We don't have a regular process for contacting the tier 1 operators, but I can tell that you in the past we have on at least two occasions attempted to contact the operators of all the zones where there were any problems detected, so we sent e?mails, some of them came back and fixed some of the issues but others have not responded. We don't have regular process and we can certainly go back to them again. But I am sorry to report that we don't get too many responses from the operators.

CARSTEN SCHIEFNER: I understand. Thank you. And the second one is about the other pie chart, about NXdomain names, right almost 90% are coming from Turkey. Is there, I guess I have asked that very question last time already, is there any reasons for that that you would see or you would be in a position to explain about or is that like just random noise to some extent

ANAND BUDDHDEV: I don't think it's random. When we looked at this data, we discovered that most of these queries for 90 actually came from a resolver that appeared to be in Turkey. So it seems like some ISP or some network operator has enabled ENUM in some application, and it's steadily sending out queries and not getting any useful responses.

Carsten: So would you say that the assumption is at least fair that this ?? this operator of that very, well, resolver, is ?? might be a telco operator that actually uses the ENUM tree for, well, terminating calls, but unfortunately there is not yet a delegation for Turkey, is that a fair assumption or is there any other data or better assumption?

ANAND BUDDHDEV: Well, we haven't spoken to this operator so we can't say for sure what they are doing, but what you suggest is quite possible, that they are terminating SIP calls and looking these numbers up. Thanks everyone.

NIALL O'REILLY: Thanks, and welcome back, you used to be the regular reporter from the RIPE NCC a few years ago and it's nice to see an old friend again back.

And I think next up is my short update on, and is a website which summarises information about ENUM data. I guess I don't need this microphone any more. I can use the one on the podium.  ?? which was started by one of the previous co?chairs of the ENUM Working Group a long time ago, who hosted it on his own equipment for a number of years and recently it's been taken over, the hosting has been taken over very kindly by the RIPE NCC and you can see here not quite ?? you can see one of the new delegations, 888 is there. I am eager to have more information from any ENUM operators for this website, so if you are in the room and you haven't sent me an update recently, I'd appreciate getting it. You can send it to ENUM WG Chairs [at] ripe [dot] net or Niall O'Reilly @ucd.i.e. and it will be dealt with.

If we can go to my first slide and ?? I can do this myself now of course. Yes. Here are the ?? the statistics that I get from looking at the data that people have given me for the ENUM data org site. And as you can see there are two new delegations, as Anand has mentioned, the size of the zone has grown by two and there is one extra production ENUM prefix and that's the one for the UN office for the coordination of humanitarian action which is run by Voxbone and there are two new delegations, one of them is already in production.

The comparative statistics for NRENum are they had last week 18 delegations in the zone, two of which appear to be signed. So, NRENum what Mihaly Meszaros was talking to us about earlier has come from a small project at the time of the Lisbon RIPE meeting to quite a big deployment in very few years.

And finally, please, as I said earlier, if you have updates to send me, send me the updates, and thanks to the RIPE NCC who host this website and to Kim Davies who used to do that before.

And you have a chance to ask questions. I am not really expecting any. But Carsten is standing up.

Carsten: This is not necessarily a question, that goes to you but rather to the community here. I wonder whether the community would feel it useful to not only have our golden free information on but say combined, as you rightly said NRENum is about to become significantly larger, to have some kind of combined effort on that page as well, so if somebody feels like this is, it's useful, let us know, and if there is ?? there is a certain amount of requests for that then we might be actually thinking about it.

NIALL O'REILLY: That's a good idea, Carsten. And that brings all the items, all the main items of the agenda to a close. The agenda has a couple of extra items. Wave slot there for discussions in plenary sessions because sometimes we have had ENUM presentations there but there weren't any this time so that's empty. We don't have any issues for other Working Groups at the moment. We do have some any other business. Earlier on we heard that revalidation is an issue in ENUM. Revalidation is also an issue which is emerging in the organisation of the RIPE Working Groups. There has been a task force report on the appointment and replacement and revalidation of RIPE Working Group Chairs and I thought it appropriate to bring this to the attention of this Working Group to encourage anybody who really thinks they'd like to either join or replace either Carsten or me as Working Group co?chair and think about it and let us know that they are volunteering before the Dublin meeting, and if not, we may ?? Carsten and I will be thinking about what way best to revalidate the current co?chairs, but think about whether you want to be a volunteer. It's not really hard work and it can be interesting and we will see where that goes.

Are there any other businesses?

Then, it's simply falls to me to thank you all for coming, to thank the speakers, Rick and Mihaly Meszaros for their interesting presentations, to thank Fergal and Athina who were the scribe and the Jabber, receiver the Jabber relay person, to thank Tom and Aoife, Tom who handled the remote presentation and Aoife who is tapping away there and sometimes she puts surprise messages when she is thanked. I am feeling a little nervous and all the team, all the team who do all the background work. Thanks to them all.